Including that one...

I've always wanted some form of tag/indicator of a comment's/thread's source....

LOL...another case of if you don't share the general consensus you are wrong. At least that's how i am reading between the lines on that one.

It certainly is arguable but the above definition seems to fit to me. I remember when I created my metaverse character and one of the categories of background info was "Favorite Skin Author". I remember thinking "what in God's name is a skin author". A number of risque possibilities came to mind that I won't mention here.

I still think that if you asked the average computer user that question today, there would be far more that wouldn't know what you were talking about than those that would. I think it's vain to assume that if you mention skinning that the ordinary person even has a clue what you're talking about.

I guess if you want to call skinning an artform then I concede that as a legitimate point. After all, art is certainly in the eye of the beholder. All I was really saying was I don't personally understand the motivation. Still don't.

However I'm really not trying to bash someone's favorite artform. It certainly doesn't hurt me in any way, if it gives enjoyment to even only a few then it's a good thing. My initial post was really more of simply wondering what's so great about skinning.

It's funny this thread was just about the first discussion between GC2aholics and wincustomizers that held firmly as a mature discussion about each others opinions on the other and the forums we have to share along with the good and the bad that goes with that.

I find it perplexing that it is a Stardockian who is the first to attack the gamers when all that was mentioned was one person's opinion on skinning. I do concede that, this time, Jafo's comments were somewhat veiled but i find it amusing that a Stardock employee, an employee of a gaming company, amonst other things, is calling the very product that that company markets and develops to be childish. Furthermore the comment is directed to the very users of that "childish" product and not just users but Stardock customers.

Dare i ask since that games are childish and for kids, what does that make us adults who buy your product and play them?

I know im picking on a very small comment here, but it has been the general feeling amongst many GC2 users that the Stardockians on the wincustomize side of the fence could really care less about GC2, hence the above comments, but furthermore their feelings have come through on more than just occasion and i'm sick of having to complain about being the red headed step child in private.

Regardless of what products we have purchased, we are all Stardock customers and to be lablled as childish, and yes i can read between the lines, is very poor customer relations.

Let's end the fight. We are not WinCustomizers. We are not hardcore GalCiv2 gamers. We are all Stardockians.

And what's the point in arguing; none of us will get out alive from this madhouse anyway  

My point exactly. We were not arguing, at least i didnt think so. Thats why i found jafo's defensive comments so absurd.

I don't think Jafo was calling PC games or anyone who plays them childish - given his 90+ personal collection - but rather to point out that Stardockians on the customization side of things could viwe gaming as pointless exercise, as Mumblefratz did when he personally said that saw no real value in skinning.  Again, it comes back to 'each to his/her own'... however, it is respecting one another's chosen hobbies/pastimes and not denigrating their choice[s].

I do enjoy playing the few games I do possess, but while I'm not an avid gamer and have no need to get the latest and greatest, I can understand/relate to those who do because I'm into customising my desktop and like to keep abreast of the latest and greatest apps to achieve what I like to do with it.

[quote}I don't think Jafo was calling PC games or anyone who plays them childish[/quote]

Errrm, i don't believe there is any room for misinterpretation in this comment,

I do see though a big difference between Mumblefratz expressing a view that he finds no real value in skinning and Jafo saying games are childish. Mumbles comments are opinion that disrespects no-one nor anyone's choosen hobby. Much like if i was to say i don't really see the point of Myspace. I'm not calling it childish or making any remarks about it, just stating it's not for me.

Jafo did not. And the fact that he is an employee of the company that is pioneering a new era in PC gaming (see the many steps SD have taken to assure gamers rights) i find very strange for him to label games, and therefore gamers in that manner.

This is not, and wasnt a Gamer VS Skinner debate, but there is a stigmatism coming from the skinning devs that the gaming side of SD is irrelevant. These comments and others recently point that way for my mind anyway.

The first case implies that I believe skinning to be of no value, what I actually said was skinning has no real value *to me*. The first case is denigrating the artform the second case is merely stating a personal opinion.

Nor did I take Jafo's comments to be denigrating to "gamers". In the same light if someone does hold the view that games are senseless or childish I can't really argue against their opinion. Neither would it anger or bother me in any way.

As I've said a number of times I was merely honestly wondering what all the interest is about because in "real life" I've never met anyone that has ever even used the word "skinning".

If you go roller skating at the roller rink you probably think most everyone roller skates but in reality very few people do.

I repeat that I'm nor denigrating your artform but I am suggesting that if I say what's all this about skinning and someone replies "you can't be serious" my response is I most certainly am. The vanity comes into play in your assumptions that everyone both knows what this is and appreciates it. I suggest that 99% of all people don't even know about it so how can this be so universal an appeal.

By the way, other than Solitare, Minesweeper and whatever else comes with the OS these days, I own precisely 2 games and yes I agree they have no functional use.

Neilo ....time to sharpen your English Comprehension skills....

The description of PC games as 'childish' was/is a direct counter to the assertion that skinning/GUI modding must be for the vain.

Note the subsequent para where I add I have 90+ games installed myself and obviously a skinner too....so either I am BOTH vain AND childish.... or I am neither.

Simple, really....

It would pay to not use a Wiki or any informal information source as definitive...

....and 'vanity' even in THAT definition is about one's own perception of one's ability/appearance aka 'ego' which has exactly nothing to do with the creation of graphic art.

It could be argued equally poorly that it was 'vanity' th made people play games....confident their personal superiority, self-importance and ego would win out...instead of the simple thrill of competitive spirit...

Whatever.

@Mumble/Neilo: really guys?  Mumble, we all know, all too well, your views on the superflous. Do we really need a running commentary every single time in multiple threads and forums every time you have a thought disagreeing?  I mean, don't get me wrong here, I think you're a good guy from all the time I worked with you in the MVL, and definitely a knowledgeable player; but yeah, its not that I disagree with you, its just that I'm getting kind of tired of hearing it over and over again- its like Walter Mathau's character from Grumpy Old Men- just not as funny. And Neilo, I've told you before that you need to just step back before you write out responses, again its not that I disagree always, but dang kid, you sure aren't winning any points.

@Jafo: You are right in that if anyone had actually read the entire response, they should have seen/surmised that you were being tongue-in-cheek, esp. since you mentioned your ownership of 90+ games.  However, I will at least defend M/N in that there has seemed to be a runup in strange moderator behavior since the forums got linked together; and its caused some issues now and then.  For example, I am at a loss to figure out why a particular forum moderator locks threads that have reasonable questions that he answers and that have no bad or offensive content whatsoever; instead of just moving it to the proper forum.  But its his call, just very very weird (esp since it brings undue attention to those threads).  My point is that the winks, nudge, nudge, and then random locks, is just causing a divide between the mods/devs and the Users- i miss the good ole straightforward, right to point SD that i continue to use and love.

-Silver-

Look you've grabbed onto a comment that I made almost in passing that has little real importance to me. If you wish and it makes you feel better then I'll concede that skinning is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

What I brought up that was of considerable more importance to me and something to which you at least acknowledged partial agreement, is the problem of the mixing of all of SD's sites and the implications that has on each individual site.

It's clear that the mixing is supported by the highest levels at Stardock and is that is not about to change. Fine.

But the two points I brought up about it seem reasonable to more than just myself. First and assumedly less controversial is just knowing the context of someone's interest by knowing where each reply in a shared forum comes from.

Secondly if were going to share forums then let's really share forums. Could someone possibly publish a site map indicating the different forums and on which sites they're accessible from?

Basically it should be clear to someone who their audience is. For example I had no clue the Impulse forum was a subforum of Stardock Support. To me it was just the forum that seemed to have so many threads that it blotted out the sun. But the Off Topic forum and it's Personal Computing forum isn't as widely accessible.

If I go into a McDonald's in Paris, I have a good idea what's on the menu even if they call French Fries, frites. The same with Stardock's sites. The menu should at least be consistent. If people are posting things that conceivably gets spread across all 19 of SD's site they should at least be aware of that fact and it shouldn't matter whether you're at galciv2, sins, Impulse, etc.

My humble opinion:

Is it vanity to use skins and windowsblinds? Not more then to buy a nice kitchen table with a glass surface instead of a cheep table at a secont-hand store. Some people are content with a table with 4 legs and a surface you can put your plate on, other people want/need more to enjoy their enviroment. Some people wants no distractions when they are working. Other need their music/coffe/TV in the background to work more effectively.

I´ve been both a "bare-bone" user and a "skin junkie", so i should know Right now, i´m an undecided voter. But i do prefer a nice looking user enviroment to a DOS shell right now

Just stick with whatever you like best.

And hey, remember:

http://xkcd.com/438/

Peace and out